[board] Today's minutes

[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Attached are the minutes from today's meeting. Thanks all! I'll post a  
followup when I've summarized on my blog.

-chuck
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[11:03] yunosh: geez, i've been on the wrong irc server and wondered why i'm still alone 
[11:03] MrVi: lol
[11:03] yunosh: good afternoon anyone
[11:03] kevinUofA: 
[11:03] MrVi: hey jan
[11:03] kevinUofA: good morning Jan
[11:04] yunosh: so, did we start already?
[11:04] wrobel: moin
[11:04] kevinUofA: nope
[11:04] MrVi: we were waiting for you
[11:05] yunosh: cjh: do you want to start or should i?
[11:05] cjh: would you? I'm in my 2nd day back and a bit swamped. I'll talk as needed 
[11:05] yunosh: k
[11:06] yunoshis: searching for ben's agenda
[11:06] MrVi: Agenda items;
[11:06] MrVi: * Horde 3.2 Release Reactions
[11:06] MrVi: * Horde 4.0 Development Plans
[11:06] MrVi: - Git vs. SVN. vs. CVS vs. ???
[11:06] MrVi: - Jonah/Thomas overhaul
[11:06] duckslo: Agenda items;
[11:06] MrVi: * Horde Website Redesign
[11:06] duckslo: * Horde 3.2 Release Reactions
[11:06] MrVi: * Horde at Linux Tag post-show impressions
[11:06] duckslo: * Horde 4.0 Development Plans
[11:06] duckslo: - Git vs. SVN. vs. CVS vs. ???
[11:06] duckslo: - Jonah/Thomas overhaul
[11:06] duckslo: * Horde Website Redesign
[11:06] duckslo: * Horde at Linux Tag post-show impressions
[11:06] yunosh: how helpful  but thanks anyway
[11:06] yunosh: let's see if i can sort this out
[11:07] yunosh: first of all; welcome everybody
[11:07] yunosh: soooo, horde 3.2 is finally!!! out
[11:07] yunosh: yay
[11:07] kevinUofA: w00t!
[11:07] MrVi: yay.. it was a nice surprise
[11:07] yunosh: as ist all other groupware apps, dimp 1.0 and the groupware bundles
[11:08] yunosh: to be honest, (getting to the first agenda item) there haven't been that many reactions
[11:08] yunosh: a lot of people started testing the release, as usual
[11:08] yunosh: they should have done that with the RCs
[11:08] yunosh: and noticed a few bugs
[11:09] yunosh: but most enthusiams was from the horde developers i guess 
[11:09] wrobel: yup 
[11:09] yunosh: or did anyone see anything special in blogs/new sites/forums/mailing lists?
[11:10] yunosh: (a few more reactions will follow in the last agenda item=
[11:10] yunosh: hm, 'kay, doesn't look like it 
[11:11] yunosh: anyway, we are really happy and proud of the releases and i think we did a good job. we as the community, ie. not only developers but users, testers, patch contributors, translators, etc
[11:12] yunosh: maybe we should insert an item before the horde 4.0 stuff
[11:12] yunosh: because there is more to come after 3.2 and before 4.0
[11:13] mrubinsk: 1.0's 
[11:13] MrVi: like 3.2.x ?
[11:13] yunosh: namely, a few more releases
[11:13] yunosh: like mrubinsk says 
[11:13] yunosh: mrubinsk:  do you have the list at hand?
[11:13] mrubinsk: Off the top of my head -
[11:14] mrubinsk: Trean, Ansel...
[11:14] mrubinsk: um...
[11:14] mrubinsklooking: at the wiki
[11:14] yunosh: wicked, whups
[11:14] mrubinsk: agora?
[11:14] yunosh: or for the less internal people: bookmarks, photo gallery, wiki, ticket system, forum(?)
[11:15] yunosh: also new versions of gollem, chora, the sork apps (passwd etc)
[11:15] mrubinsk: Hermes
[11:15] yunosh: oh yeah
[11:15] yunosh: (time tracker)
[11:16] yunosh: that's going to be fun too 
[11:16] duckslo: I like to see Trean ported to the new share hierarchical driver before the release.
[11:16] mrubinsk: heh...yea 
[11:16] yunosh: absolutely 
[11:16] mrubinsk: yup...on my TODO
[11:16] yunosh: we'll probably also see more groupware-like bundles
[11:17] yunosh: e.g. a trac-look-a-like build from wicked, chora, whups
[11:17] yunosh: or maybe a project management thingy from nag, turba, hermes, whups
[11:17] yunosh: we'll see
[11:18] yunosh: and depending on the timing, the new kronolith ajax frontend might be horde 3.2 or horde 4.0
[11:18] duckslo: Today I stated to merge current Ansel state with my modifications to provide a set for patches according to my large install.
[11:18] cjh: so, it sounds to me like we should keep HEAD relatively Horde 3.2 compatible for a bit yet
[11:19] yunosh: duckslo: great, i think your site has been a good test candidate for high-volume scaling of the horde apps
[11:19] cjh: I'm still going to work on some Horde 4 libs, which won't be merged now, but no HEAD overhaul just yet
[11:19] kevinUofA: oooh has there been movement on the Ajax Kronolith front end or is it still just conceptual for now?
[11:19] cjh: duckslo: yes, great fro me too
[11:19] cjh: from me
[11:19] yunosh: cjh: sound fine to me
[11:19] yunosh: kevinUofA: we are about to start within a month
[11:19] cjh: I intend to merge bugfixes to libs that were already in Horde 3.2, but otherwise not
[11:19] kevinUofA: very cool
[11:20] mrubinsk: duckslo: just a note that I'm in the process of merging the facial stuff right now, and have made quite a few modifications so you might want to hold off on the merge untilll after that is complete.
[11:20] yunosh: a few backend improvement should also go to kronolith 2.2.x or 2.3
[11:20] yunosh: like caldav support, more recurrence rules etc
[11:20] liamr: (are there plans for ajax overhauls of turba and ingo? or at least to make them more visually similar to DIMP?)
[11:21] yunosh: liamr: no, not at the moment
[11:21] yunosh: but sponsoring is welcome 
[11:21] yunosh: or patches
[11:22] yunosh: i guess we are already at the horde 4.0 item
[11:22] yunosh: cjh: wanna chime in here?
[11:22] duckslo: mrubinsk: oky. I will wait.
[11:23] cjh: Sure
[11:23] Shpoon: joined the channel.
[11:23] yunosh: hi michael
[11:23] cjh: So, most todos for Horde 4.0 are at the not-quite-intuitively named http://wiki.horde.org/BCBreakingHordeIssues
[11:23] cjh: I'm going to be focusing on that kind of thing a bit more as I have time, and re-working the page into a usable list of todos, specs, etc.
[11:24] cjh: but, this item can mostly be tabled until we're ready to really rip in to HEAD and start making backwards-incompatible changes
[11:25] cjh: I guess that brings us to the sub items
[11:25] cjh: source control, and the jonah/thomas spec
[11:26] cjh: We're considering moving away from CVS. There are plenty of reasons to do it, but challenges with subversion and git, the two most likely replacements, mostly related to submodules
[11:26] cjh: there are some notes on Git in particular here: http://wiki.horde.org/Project/Git
[11:26] MrVi: git seems to be more powerful though, and since you'll have the headache to change, better change to something more powerful
[11:27] cjh: and there are some support scripts for subversion here: http://cvs.horde.org/framework/devtools/svn/
[11:27] mrubinsk: I"d have to agree with MrVi...I was initially against the change, but after reading more about git's abilities I think it might be worth it.
[11:27] wrobel: from the discussion I had the impression that it would be easier to deal with submodules in git. Is that correct?
[11:27] mrubinsk: assuming we can overcome the submodule issues.
[11:28] cjh: MrVi: true, but more powerful doesn't mean it supports our needs better. It does look pretty good to me, though.
[11:28] MrVi: what's the jonah/thomas spec?
[11:28] yunosh: we still have the option on the desk to no longer use submodules, if that helps anything
[11:28] cjh: http://wiki.horde.org/Project/Thomas#toc4
[11:28] cjh: let's finish the source control discussion first though
[11:28] yunosh: i guess for new horde users it's a bit irritatin anyway
[11:28] cjh: yunosh: I thought you were the biggest argument against it
[11:29] yunosh: yeah, i know. i can learn though 
[11:29] yunosh: my biggest argument is a bit different though
[11:29] yunosh: i want to be able to commit and view changes across modules
[11:30] yunosh: during the development process
[11:30] duckslo: http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitSvnComparsion
[11:30] yunosh: if this is possible with git, than that would be a hurdle taken
[11:30] yunosh: but i don't think this is the right forum to discuss it 
[11:30] cjh: yunosh: Definitely - which is possible with all modules, as long as we check things out in parallel, or move applications under horde/ in the checkout (probably not an option with how many applications we have)
[11:31] cjh: i mean, possible with all systems, I'm pretty sure.
[11:31] cjh: anyway, yeah, let's move on. If any of you have recommendations on source control, or ideas on how we can do this with Horde, then please send us a note.
[11:31] mrubinsk: duckslo: thanks...added to the wiki page
[11:33] cjh: Okay, anything else on that?
[11:34] yunosh: not from me
[11:34] cjh: okay. For Jonah/Thomas, I just want people to be aware of the project, which is definitely more of a Horde 4 thing, but might be of interest to some people.
[11:34] cjh: And, do any of the users here use Jonah currently?
[11:35] duckslo: just to show rss feeds from other sites on my site
[11:35] mrubinsk: For the record, I use it to power news for 3 different sites
[11:35] cjh: duckslo: have you had a chance to look at the proposal? Thomas is yours, so I'd definitely like your input here.
[11:36] duckslo: I have an article publishing application. It supports article versions with diffs and rallbacks, editors per category, locks, linking to other modules (ex an direct item purchase form from Merk) etc. Maybe is a little bit too dedicated for my needs, but it can be useful for Hippo development. I can attach it to Project/Thomas wiki.
[11:37] cjh: sure, that'd be great. i haven't figured out exactly what I want yet, but one of the things I want is a content type with revision control
[11:38] cjh: okay, I think that's that.
[11:38] cjh: next up is the website, again.
[11:38] cjh: the spec is here: http://wiki.horde.org/Project/HordeWeb
[11:38] cjh: no real progress has been made
[11:38] cjh: i still think it's the right idea
[11:38] cjh: but, there we are
[11:38] cjh: I've been a bit busy 
[11:39] cjh: (for those who don't know, my wife gave birth to our first child 4 weeks ago 
[11:39] cjh: http://technest.org/ansel-vfs/52/screen/7752.png
[11:40] mrubinsk: FWIW, I think we should definitely take into account our CMS/Jonah/Thomas plans before digigng into any major site changes.
[11:40] cjh: I agree, but I don't want to hold up useful work on the site on account of writing the perfect thingamajig
[11:41] cjh: I'd prefer to make something very simple that can be merged in to a future cms/jonah replacement later.
[11:41] kevinUofA: cjh:  VERY cute.  looks like a little opera singer 
[11:42] MrVi: big yawn
[11:42] cjh: kevinUofA: she has the lungs for it too 
[11:43] mrubinsk: sure...just want to avoid discussing website redesign in another board meeting in 6 months 
[11:43] cjh: well, the technical details won't be that important. it's the information architecture that I think really needs the work, and needs people's input
[11:45] mrubinsk: yup 
[11:46] cjh: okay, linuxtag?
[11:46] yunosh: okay
[11:47] yunosh: so, i've been on linuxtag in berlin most of last week
[11:47] yunosh: it was like 100 companies and the same number of free projects
[11:47] yunosh: plus a large number of confference talks
[11:48] yunosh: horde had a small one-person booth
[11:48] yunosh: http://janschneider.de/horde/ansel/gallery/linuxtag2008/image/429/
[11:48] yunosh: it wasn't that dark actually 
[11:49] yunosh: it was a nice success i think
[11:49] yunosh: i got a lot of feedback and interested people
[11:49] yunosh: compared to my first exhibitions a few years ago, the general attitude has changed a lot
[11:50] yunosh: a lot of people used to come to the booth to complain about bugs or difficulties with the installation
[11:50] yunosh: or generally asking for help
[11:50] yunosh: now, the people come to the booth to thank us 
[11:50] yunosh: that's awesome
[11:50] kevinUofA: very cool!!
[11:51] yunosh: i guess we've done a nice job during the last few years (and of course before, but the people only realize now )
[11:51] yunosh: so there were mainly two groups of people coming to the booth
[11:51] yunosh: long time users who wanted to see the new stuff
[11:52] yunosh: and people looking for a groupware
[11:52] yunosh: only two or three were looking for a framework, but it wasn't a developer conference, so that makes sense
[11:52] yunosh: but i could make most of them happy 
[11:53] cjh: Great!
[11:53] yunosh: people were most impressed about the general feature list, synchronization, and dimp
[11:54] yunosh: the most requested features still missing were outlook support (aka exchange server clone) project management, crm, and workflow support
[11:54] cjh: good to know
[11:54] yunosh: beside that it was a nice gettogether of groupware projects
[11:55] yunosh: i got a chance to meet wrobel face-to-face
[11:55] wrobel: which was nice indeed 
[11:55] yunosh: as well as folks from kolab, egroupware and tine 2.0
[11:55] yunosh: yeah 
[11:55] yunosh: and most importantly, we somehow work with all of them in a nice manner
[11:56] yunosh: egroupware already uses an old version of our syncml server, a few code bits here and there, and we talked about merging vfs libraries
[11:56] yunosh: tine 2.0 will use our current syncml server
[11:56] yunosh: and kolab, well, you all know that
[11:56] yunosh: i think kolab 2.2 with horde 3.2 is going to be agreat success
[11:57] yunosh: especially with kontact for windows coming into play
[11:57] yunosh: wrobel: anything you want to add? that's it from my side
[11:58] wrobel: hm, no, I think your remarks are complete 
[11:58] yunosh: okay. and further questions?
[11:58] yunosh: any
[11:59] kevinUofA: Not a question... but the few people I have playing with 3.2 now are really happy with the improvements.  Kudos!
[11:59] yunosh: great
[11:59] liamr: we've been running some flavor of 3.2 since 5/8
[11:59] liamr: it's been an interesting ride
[12:00] liamr: that is, we've been running in production
[12:00] yunosh: heh, that's a nice wording 
[12:00] liamr: replacing our old 3.0.x install
[12:00] kevinUofA: wow you went production with beta code??  Brave man!
[12:01] liamr: well... in our defense, it was RC code
[12:01] liamr: not beta code.
[12:01] kevinUofA: true enuff 
[12:01] liamr: and my manager had a date on a calandar pegged.
[12:01] liamr: most of our issues will be fixed by upgrading to the real release.
[12:02] liamr: we have /not/ deployed DIMP, however.
[12:02] kevinUofA: yeah luckily i was able to convince the boss to go full production in september so I got some breathing room...
[12:03] cjh: liamr: glad things are mostly ironing out for you... please keep the bug reports coming, we'll keep doing what we can
[12:04] liamr: we're hoping to deploy an AJAX webmail client in addition to IMP this summer... but it may not be DIMP :-\
[12:04] yunosh: oh? why not?
[12:04] liamr: issues raised by our help desk during initial testing, and by some of our developers.
[12:05] liamr: this was back with like RC1 and 2
[12:05] liamr: we'll look at it again now that the release is otu
[12:05] liamr: out
[12:05] cjh: what other options are you considering?
[12:05] cjh: if I can ask
[12:05] liamr: our developers really like roundcube
[12:05] Shpoon: yuck
[12:05] Shpoon: good luck there. performance is terrible
[12:06] liamr: it looks like the other possibility it atmail... which doesn't thrill me.
[12:06] Shpoon: i played around with it to look for ideas re: dimp. - an AJAX response for a message w/roundcube is like 10,000 bytes
[12:07] Shpoon: it just dumps about 100 javascript variables and has the scripts figure it out.  Maybe its changed in the past few months, but... yuck
[12:08] liamr: do you guys have good developer references for starting with horde?   the docs at dev.horde.org aren't that complete
[12:08] liamr: and our guys have found it hard to dive in to horde
[12:08] cjh: liamr: this is one of the reasons I want to do the website reorg
[12:08] cjh: to get better docs
[12:08] yunosh: this is all we have unfortunately. plus the stuff in horde.org/papers/ in dev.horde.org/api/
[12:09] cjh: if you want to point some of them at the dev list, we can answer their questions though
[12:09] cjh: and try to write everything down
[12:09] liamr: they think the roundcube code may be easier to familiarize themselves with.
[12:09] cjh: It'd be great if we could get some of your devs more in to horde
[12:09] liamr: anyways.
[12:09] liamr: i'd like to.
[12:09] Shpoon: unfortunately, with added features comes some complexity
[12:09] liamr: but it's unlikely to happen unless we choose DIMP
[12:09] liamr: yeah
[12:09] liamr: i know
[12:10] Shpoon: roundcube is going to kill you on the backend
[12:10] cjh: so seriously, I can't promise personal tutoring, but I'll do my best to have me and others answer questions on list
[12:11] duckslo: left the server. (Remote closed the connection)
[12:11] liamr: if we do choose DIMP, i think we'll be able to throw developers at horde
[12:11] liamr: and if anyone can provide performance info on roundcube (shppoon), that'd be helpful
[12:11] cjh: okay. well that'd obviously be good for us, so please let us know what we can do to help you choose dimp 
[12:13] liamr: will do.
[12:13] cjh: thanks
[12:14] cjh: Anything else?
[12:15] mrubinsk: Just a big thanks to every one here for all the testing and feedback during this last release cycle 
[12:15] cjh: I guess not. Let's wrap it up. I'll post a summary later today, and also will post minutes to the board list if no one beats me to it (please feel free to)
[12:16] liamr: thx!
[12:16] yunosh: thank you all for joining again
[12:16] kevinUofA: thanks guys.  see you next month
[12:16] yunosh: and, what mrubinsk said 
[12:17] cjh: from me too. Thanks everyone!