10:58:29 < kevinUofA> Good morning, everyone!
10:58:54 <@bklang> morning Kevin!
11:00:09 < yunosh> hi kevin
11:00:18 < yunosh> and everybody else
11:02:08 < selsky_> re
11:02:33 < yunosh> so, should we start or wait a few minutes for any late-comers?
11:02:49 -!- pete_b [n=peter@Z-a2-1-0-384-S1.tls3.tor1.rogerstelecom.net] has joined #horde-board
11:03:52 < kevinUofA> I think we can probably start... the transcripts will be available later.
11:04:04 < cjh> Let's get going.
11:04:17 -!- johnmorr [n=jwm@boost.horde.net] has joined #horde-board
11:04:48 < yunosh> do we have any new folks today who want to introduce themselves?
11:05:34 < yunosh> pete_b, protagonist: i don't remember your nicks, but that might be due to my age :)
11:06:03 < pete_b> Pete Baldwin -- ClarkConnect guy.  I missed the last two meetings... sorry about that.
11:06:28 < yunosh> ah, right
11:07:27 < yunosh> so, welcome everybody to the third meeting
11:07:44 < yunosh> bklang: do you take over the agenda again?
11:07:49 <@bklang> sure
11:08:22 <@bklang> Ok, well the first item we have is a new initiative being led by Chuck
11:08:31 <@bklang> cjh: are you still around to talk about the new Website proposal?
11:08:40 < cjh> yup!
11:08:54 < cjh> sorry, there are distractions in my life right now :)
11:09:04 < cjh> so, we've talked for a while about the fact that Horde needs a better website
11:09:39 < cjh> and Duck especially has raised some good points lately about how information is split between www.horde.org, wiki.horde.org, dev.horde.org, etc.
11:10:11 < cjh> So I'm proposing a project to unify the website - pretty much everything but the package installation interface of pear.horde.org, and the CVS browser (since that's self-explanatory as a separate URL)
11:10:22 < cjh> my initial ideas are up here: http://wiki.horde.org/Project/HordeWeb
11:10:58 < cjh> along with a very, very rough wireframe of how the site might look, split into 3 main areas, with boxes across the top for Developers, Admins, and Users, and a left-hand sidebar containing the links for whichever section you're currently on
11:11:06 < cjh> though that's of course completely open to change
11:11:35 < cjh> and one of the things I'd love is if anyone here can offer some design expertise. I know UMich has worked with a good designer on some of their apps; I don't know if he/she is on staff or not
11:11:55 < cjh> we do have some funding from bounties to pay someone at least a little, if it's not something that someone can donate
11:12:18 < cjh> I like the design of http://dev.horde.org/routes/, and something similar to that as a unified theme would be nice, but again, I'm open, especially if someone's doing a full redesign.
11:12:32 < cjh> That's the summary.
11:12:58 < cjh> The first thing I'd like to ask people if if they have a CMS they really like that they think would fit our needs, or if people are on board with modifying/extending wicked (essentially) to be this app
11:13:27 < cjh> I have other uses for a relatively simple, Horde-based, flexible CMS, and I see it as a bit of a showcase project for the new Horde 5 libs
11:13:34 < cjh> but I don't want to be completely NIH (not invented here) about it
11:13:50 <@bklang> I agree actually.  I'd love to see some of the neat integration that Trac has come to Horde
11:14:16 <@bklang> and I think that many of the necessary components are in place (via API, etc) and we just need to glue them together
11:15:21 < cjh> Yes, I think so too. Might be a bit of an evolution of Horde_Block, but for now it's pretty useable as-is.
11:15:51 <@bklang> Even something like using the CVS post-commit script to update the relevant ticket with a link to the source delta would be spiffy
11:15:59 < yunosh> i don't see trac exactly as something we want to have on the website. i like it as a developer resource, and we should create a similar bundle for download, but i don't think it really fits a public website's need
11:16:10 < cjh> bklang: I have that written for horde-svn already :)
11:16:14 < yunosh> but beside that, i agree
11:16:25 <@bklang> ah, svn... but I won't digress
11:16:31 < Shpoon> cjh: good - i was just going to ask about svn and/or git :)
11:16:44 < cjh> yeah, let's not. it's in devtools though - could be adapted easily
11:17:19 <@bklang> any other comments or offers for assistance on the website project before we move on?
11:17:20 < cjh> Okay, so not hearing anyone saying they love another CMS, it sounds like this is a project.
11:17:33 < cjh> Next question: who can help, especially on the information architecture/design side?
11:17:48 < cjh> (obviously coding help is more than welcome, but that _is_ my area as opposed to design :)
11:18:34 < Shpoon> unfortunately, i am in the same boat as cjh
11:19:01 < kevinUofA> I'd be willing to spend some time on it.  I think if we could get 3 or 4 people talking about it we could probably get a basic architecture done fairly quickly.
11:19:08 < cjh> liamr: I think it was you who had a good designer you worked with on some other UMich apps like the file app?
11:20:10 < kevinUofA> oh but if uMich has a good designer on staff I think that would be the person who should be on point
11:20:48 < liamr> we've got a UI guy on staff and a gfx designer that we've contracted with before
11:21:19 < liamr> I can float it by our manager, and see what he says.
11:21:29 < cjh> liamr: that would be great
11:22:08 < cjh> Okay, does anyone have any other comments on this idea? I'd like to get questions now, since I may have to duck out towards the end of the meeting.
11:22:13 < liamr> i can also point you to the designer if anyone is interested.  his rates are pretty reasonable, though his portfolio is out of date
11:22:21 < cjh> liamr: sure, please do
11:22:42 < liamr> www.chrisd.com
11:23:30 < cjh> Alright, thanks folks. I'll try and get an app into CVS for this pretty soon. Go go!
11:23:43 < kevinUofA> he's got some nice work on that site...
11:23:52 <@bklang> Alright, I'm going to deviate slightly from the agenda and let Yunosh talk about his LinuxTag booth next
11:24:09 < yunosh> sure
11:24:22 < yunosh> http://www.linuxtag.de
11:24:26 < yunosh> i think it's even english
11:24:38 < yunosh> a huge opensource fair and conference in berlin
11:25:01 < yunosh> i've been there once with a horde booth under the lamp umbrella
11:25:08 < yunosh> but now we have a dedicate booth
11:25:37 < yunosh> unfortunately i'm the only staff there, but that'll work somehow
11:25:57 < yunosh> i'm going to showcase horde 3.2/groupware 1.1/dimp etc
11:26:20 < cjh> nice
11:26:25 <@bklang> wish I was going to be there
11:26:40 < yunosh> http://janschneider.de/horde/ansel/view.php?gallery=510&view=Gallery&havesearch=0 has a few photos from last time i've been there
11:26:49 < yunosh> man, is it really 3 years since then?
11:27:08 < kevinUofA> No kidding!  I'm lucky to get my boss to pay for me to go to OSCON in Portland, let alone anything overseas....
11:27:26 < yunosh> anyway, i'm mentioning this fyi, but also for some feedback on marketing material
11:27:38 < yunosh> i want to update the material we have, that is limited anyway
11:27:56 < yunosh> currently we have a single poster: http://janschneider.de/horde/ansel/view.php?gallery=75&page=1&view=Image&image=337&havesearch=0
11:28:08 < yunosh> and flyers: http://www.horde.org/papers/groupware.pdf
11:28:13 <@bklang> Don't we have more than 62 libraries now?
11:28:20 < yunosh> well possible
11:28:30 <@bklang> cool poster though, I had not seen it before
11:28:33 < yunosh> what i'd want to do is to make two posters of them
11:28:42 < yunosh> one more focusing on the developer side
11:28:50 < yunosh> one more for groupware users/admins
11:29:16 < yunosh> because from my experience with past exhibitions, many people don't know what horde is
11:29:31 < yunosh> and didn't get an immediate grasp from the poster either
11:29:46 < yunosh> also, i want to update the flyer for groupware 1.1
11:30:01 < kevinUofA> Hmmm.... I wonder if the idea of bringing in the designer for the website could also be leveraged for promo materials?  You're right in that it's important to clearly explain and show what horde is and what it can be used for... I'm not sure if squishing it all onto a poster is enough...
11:30:09 < yunosh> and probably won't have the two groupware editions separately anymore
11:30:29 < yunosh> kevinUofA: definitely not, and any help is welcome
11:30:44 < yunosh> actually, the poster was designed from one at oblo
11:30:52 < yunosh> though the original text was from me
11:30:55 <@bklang> You could do a poster that has the caption "What is Horde?" with 3 or 4 bullet points (maybe with small screenshots) that answer that question.  "Horde is ..."
11:31:18 < yunosh> i'd love to get some feedback for futher improvements especially from you that i consider "clients"
11:31:54 < yunosh> bklang: sounds like a printed faq, but without the caption, i like it :)
11:31:59 < kevinUofA> What do you expect to have in terms of a booth?  Will you have a big backdrop with posters on it or something?  Or could you have a large display?
11:32:10 < liamr>  what would be an appropriate feedback mechanism?  the email lists?  a forum someplace?
11:32:27 < yunosh> i ordered space for two din a0 posters on the back and a display for the flyers
11:32:52 < yunosh> liamr: right here right now, if you have some immediate ideas
11:32:59 < yunosh> otherwise me personally i guess
11:33:28 < cjh> yunosh: btw, if there are expenses for the booth that we can reimburse you for with bounty money, let me know
11:33:41 < liamr> i'll ping our developers and send you email
11:33:46 < yunosh> cjh: sure, there will be for this material
11:33:52 < yunosh> liamr: great, thanks
11:34:28 < yunosh> of course if someone has a designer at hand for this too, that could create print templates for what we decide on, even better
11:34:48 < yunosh> it's quite some work for someone not from the print business, i can tell you :)
11:35:35 < kevinUofA> Very true.  Your Illustrator-foo must be strong....
11:36:04 < yunosh> gimp, inkscape and ooo actually :)
11:36:22 < kevinUofA> hehe of course.... should have guessed ;)
11:37:10 < yunosh> that's it from my side about linuxtag
11:37:19 <@bklang> alright
11:37:34 <@bklang> well that brings us to the 800 lb. gorrila in the room... Horde 3.2
11:37:54 <@bklang> there are 3 items underneath this
11:38:22 <@bklang> First, once again I'll link the Showstopper bugs
11:38:36 <@bklang> http://bugs.horde.org/runquery.php?query=329
11:38:57 <@bklang> We have managed to close a couple since last time we met, but there are still more that need to be resolved before 3.2 can happen
11:39:22 <@bklang> any help is appreciated, whether it's code, testing, documentation, whatever
11:39:24 < MrVi> i need 3.2 to be out really badly :)
11:39:52 < yunosh> actually 6594 is almost complete
11:40:02 < liamr> so do we. :-\  We're going to push RC3 out.  None of the show stoppers effect us directly.
11:40:02 < yunosh> i'm not sure if 6665 is really a show stopper
11:40:51 < yunosh> and 6056 couldn't be reproduced by anyone than this user, maybe a pebkac
11:41:05 < yunosh> so it's more 2 than 5
11:41:12 < cjh> well cool :)
11:41:27 <@bklang> that's good news
11:42:16 < MrVi> shpoon also needs 3.2 to be out :)
11:42:37 < cjh> So, I think we should roll a new set of RCs this week, and release 3.2 by the end of this month, period, barring catastrophic issues.
11:42:44 < yunosh> we all need it to be out :)
11:42:53 < yunosh> good plan
11:42:59 < kevinUofA> sounds great
11:43:09 < yunosh> it would great if it was released in time for linuxtag
11:43:33 <@bklang> Alright, the good news is that the extra time we've been taking on the 3.2 release has netted us some good improvements, even since RC3
11:43:42 < cjh> Is there anything that is really close, or that _must_ be fixed before the next RCs?
11:44:08 < yunosh> the webdav dirs i think
11:44:09 < cjh> If not, I'll make it my goal to roll the RCs this afternoon (EST), with help if available, assuming work doesn't interfere
11:44:11 < yunosh> for turba
11:44:18 < cjh> okay. You said you're working on that?
11:44:20 <@bklang> yeah Turba's WebDAV 
11:44:21 < yunosh> but that's not critical either
11:44:28 <@bklang> I'm on that one
11:44:56 < cjh> Wait, are both of you coding it?
11:45:02 < selsky_> what about timed vacations for ingo's procmail?
11:45:16 < yunosh> no, just ben
11:45:36 < Shpoon> for the cache.php stuff i did yesterday, my thought is to use PATH_INFO instead of URL parameters.  so that should be tested/implemented by this afternoon
11:45:39 < yunosh> selsky_: not exactly a show stopper, or do you think differently
11:45:48 < Shpoon> i think that would get rid of the crazy manual expiration of the cache :)
11:46:15 < selsky_> we do advertise timed vacations as a 3.2 feature
11:46:42 < yunosh> that doesn't necessarily mean it's available for *all* backends :)
11:46:51 < yunosh> what that's the current state anyway?
11:47:00 < yunosh> what's the ...
11:47:50 < selsky_> i don't think the original code ever worked
11:48:04 < yunosh> can you point to a ticket?
11:48:11 < cjh> 6509
11:48:14 < selsky_> if we just disable it for the procmail backend until it works then it's not a blocker.
11:48:26 < yunosh> k
11:48:32 < cjh> and I don't think it's a blocker for the next RCs either way
11:48:39 < yunosh> yeah
11:48:42 < selsky_> agreed
11:48:53 < cjh> Shpoon: you'd like the cache stuff to be in the RCs I assume?
11:49:07 < selsky_> is there someone else with some procmail kung-fu who could assist me?
11:49:35 < yunosh> not me
11:49:44 < cjh> I'd only be a proxy for google
11:49:51 <@bklang> I don't touch the stuff myself
11:50:10 < selsky_> ha
11:50:35 < cjh> Okay, so turba webdav and PATH_INFO for caching, then new RCs, and release by the end of the month, ideally by linuxtag. Plan?
11:50:43 < yunosh> plan!
11:50:45 <@bklang> Done.
11:51:11 < cjh> Cool. Let's make it happen. :)
11:51:11 <@bklang> so speaking of the next RC, I wanted to mention some of the improvements since RC3
11:51:26 <@bklang> these are areas which could use extra testing as well
11:51:35 <@bklang> The biggest item is probably the new SQL share driver
11:52:02 <@bklang> a lot of hard work has gone into it and it represents one of teh biggest steps away from DataTree
11:52:27 <@bklang> those installations with heavy DataTree usage should see a performance benefit with this new driver
11:52:57 <@bklang> In addition the SQL cache driver has been tested more exhaustively and should now be working
11:53:08 <@bklang> (which is different from the cache issue described by Shpoon)
11:53:27 < yunosh> plus we also have native sql drivers for permissions and groups too, though i'm not sure how well they are tested
11:53:30 < yunosh> anyone?
11:53:30 <@bklang> also some structural changes have taken place in the URL schema for WebDAV-enabled applications Nag, Kronolith, and Turba
11:54:00 < cjh> I'm using all of the new SQL drivers - had a few kinks to work out, but it's working for me (and my wife and parents) now
11:54:49 <@bklang> those are all the notes I have on new features since RC3 (did I miss any?).  At this point we'd like to get any feedback you have on the RCs or any other questions
11:55:45 < yunosh> a lot of sync improvements have been made too
11:56:02 < yunosh> both to the syncml libraries and the appliations's sync connectors
11:56:07 -!- mnaberez [n=mnaberez@cpe-24-195-213-23.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #horde-board
11:56:53 <@bklang> no questions?  no feedback?
11:57:47 < kevinUofA> Nope.  We've been playing with RC3 and so far it's looking good (with minor bugfixes that have been submitted)
11:58:02 < kevinUofA> though we haven't subjected it to any hard load testing yet
11:58:22 < liamr> most of our issues with RC3 have been solved by stuff in the FRAMEWORK_3 branch in CVS
11:58:33 < yunosh> sounds good :)
11:58:42 < liamr> the pcre.backtrace thing was not fun to track down
11:59:05 < cjh> Yeah, thanks to everyone involved in that.
11:59:16 < yunosh> that's a nasty one indeed. Shpoon can problaly chime in :)
11:59:58 < liamr> It took the developer who worked on it here a couple of hours to find it.  Then saw you had come up with a similar solution
12:00:30 < liamr> we're still having issues with the apple mail nested html tags and the processing in Text/Filter/xss.php
12:00:41 < cjh> Okay, I'm going to be pulled into a lunch now - anything before I have to split?
12:00:54 <@bklang> I think it's about time to gavel out anyway
12:01:07 <@bklang> thanks all for coming.  As always any more feedback is welcome on the board@lists.horde.org mailing list
12:01:16 <@bklang> and don't forget those showstoppers!
12:01:27 <@bklang> http://bugs.horde.org/runquery.php?query=329
12:01:39 < cjh> thanks all! I'll be back later to help with turba/etc. and hopefully RCs.
12:02:05 < yunosh> thanks everyone, and expect final releases at the next meeting :)
12:02:14 < kevinUofA> w00t!  :)