[Tickets #11078] Re: Change the default value for 'mailbox_start' preference

[bugs at horde.org]

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. THIS EMAIL ADDRESS IS NOT MONITORED.

Ticket URL: http://bugs.horde.org/ticket/11078
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ticket             | 11078
  Updated By         | vilius at lnk.lt
  Summary            | Change the default value for 'mailbox_start' preference
  Queue              | IMP
  Version            | Git master
  Type               | Enhancement
  State              | Feedback
  Priority           | 1. Low
  Milestone          |
  Patch              | 1
  Owners             |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


vilius at lnk.lt (2012-03-28 05:54) wrote:

>>> What is the most important thing to a user in a mailbox?  Messages
>>> that they have not yet seen.  This is way more useful than loading a
>>> mailbox and then having to scroll through all sorts of pages to find
>>> the first unseen message.
>>>
>>> And this sort is the only option that works as expected with both
>>> sort directions.
>>
>> Except it isn't as my experience with users shows. We often get calls
>> with questions "How do I adjust the mailbox so it would show me the
>> newest messages on top, just like Gmail does?
>
> I don't care what Gmail does.  Any argument that begins with "Gmail  
> does it this way..." is instantly a loser in my book.  Gmail does  
> ALL sorts of things ass-backward and stupid.  The important query is  
> instead why one way of doing things is better than the other.
>
> Same goes for the "you have to cater to what people are  
> expecting/used to" argument.  That is complete BS.  If you are doing  
> things properly, users will adapt (quickly).  Otherwise you are  
> arguing that all design decisions will be made by Google, Apple,  
> etc. since they are the most popular.  But most popular != best.

Gmail is just and example. I definetely don't say that everything  
Gmail does IMP should do too. I agree with you that half of things  
they do IS ass-backward and stupid. Sent Mail management, tag  
management to name a few. However regarding message sorting, as I see  
this, through years things improved and changed because users wanted  
this. These days almost every major webmail provider, Facebook,  
Twitter, etc. sorts messages descendently. Because IMHO this is more  
natural design.

>> Technically, ideally, the point of IMAP is to do message sorting
>> server side.
>
> This is an inaccurate statement.  By design, IMAP is designed NOT to  
> sort messages by default (sorting was only added server-side after  
> the fact).  The only built-in sorting mechanism in base IMAP is  
> sorting by arrival *ascending*.

Sorry I was not clear here, I was talking about sorting/moving  
messages to different mailboxes using server side filters.

>> Even if some mailboxes doesn't receive mail, using that kind of
>> sorting on Inbox gives far more advantages than does harm. IMHO
>> descending sorting is more...  natural way presenting information.
>
> I'll just stop here and note that thread sorting is *completely*  
> useless when it is done by descending sort.

Ahh, yes, this could be the problem. But again, how many ordinary  
users use threading if they are not subscribed to any development  
mailing list? And even if they do they have to enable thread sorting  
anyway, it is off by default. So adjusting sorting direction on needed  
threaded mailbox should be no fuss.

I have actually seen thread sorting done right in The Bat! email  
client. If threading enabled they sort on thread level not on message  
level. Even more, they have and option to show all threads with new  
messages always on top. And boy it works wonders. Given that The Bat!  
is a desktop client, not sure if this can be implemented in IMP though.

> The fact that we disagree so much indicates that one setting is not  
> clearly preferable to the other setting.  Thus, there is no reason  
> to change the default - all things being equal, we should keep the  
> status quo to confuse users as least as possible.

If most of the admins on the mailing list will be against it, or if  
there will be even a tie then fine by me. As I said, I can change the  
setting in my servers myself. Just thought this would be and  
improvement for others too.