[dev] Fwd: Re: Patch I submitted

[Conor Kerr]

Hi Eric,

Did you not get my other mail to you (in response to your other private
mail to me)?

> I know that in my Eudora you can attach the files (e.g. images) either
> inline or as attachments. 

Yeah, but what's the default that the general user will use?  Yep,
content-disposition:attachment! :)

> And by default it does *not* show images
> that are attachments, though that can be *enabled* by the user.

No it doesn't, but it sends them that way which is the main problem. 
(Actually, by default it doesn't show images at all whether they are
marked as "inline" or "attachment".)

> I know either hotmail or yahoo! has recently changed to provide for not
> showing content-disposition:attachment images in-line citing security
> concerns.  So they seem to be moving towards us, rather than away from
> us.

Some at least are moving towards the standards, yes, which is the way it
should be.  I'd wager that it's still going to be a long time before
the majority has completed that move though.

> I don't have time to check all the clients you list, but I bet at least some
> more of them than Eudora allow for attaching both ways, and to select if you
> want to view them or not if they are labeled as attachments, at least in
> their newer versions (older versions may be more broken).

In essence it's not a matter of what they allow for but of what the
default is and what method the majority of mail is sent using.

> So I think again your argument is flawed (since you imply Eudora only
> supports them as an attachment disposition, which is wrong, making your
> argument either misleading or flawed).

I have been talking about the majority case since the start and that
hasn't changed in any way... the majority of mailers attach images as
disposition:attachment (at least by default).  You don't have to take my
word for it but everything I've seen points that way.  My response to
you in private is of more use here.

> Wrong.  

Let's not be so final shall we?

> At least some of them do support inline attaching of images, at
> least in some versions on some platforms.  So if your some of your facts
> are wrong, I can't accept your conclusion.

Okay, fair enough, what I stated wasn't explicity true, I apologise, Eudora
allows the option.  However Hotmail definitely doesn't, neither does
Outlook Express.  I don't have Outlook installed anymore because it's a
piece of crap and I don't have access to Lotus Notes at the minute
either but the only important point remains true, the majority of
clients send images as disposition:attachment.  People can change their
settings in some cases but most don't seem to.  Very few of the general
users ever change their settings, that can be taken for granted as any
usability expert will tell you.

Please remember that we are talking about the general case and general
user here... you indicated in private that your definition of the
average user may differ from mine, I look forward to hearing more about
that.  You know how much experience I have in determining my definition.

> And I think more of them are moving towards the standards than away.  It
> wouldn't befit us to move away from standards that others are moving 
> towards.

I've covered that in private and don't have time to repeat it here.

> > It was clear though that Eric had not read some of my
> > post properly
> 
> I had.

Yes, for anyone who is reading this (poor you :) ), this has been sorted
off list now, I have apologised to Eric for a misunderstanding which was
my fault.

> A lot of the usability problem is programs which aren't compatible, which is
> because they don't all follow the standards. 

That most certainly is part of the problem but until I hear about how
you use email at your University and learn about a new style of using
email from you I cannot say whether or not concerns of this type about
this issue are negligible or not.

> > Okay, the inline display of [supported] images marked as attachments
> > isn't life or death or in any way critical/important but I must admit to
> > a bit of losing of respect for anyone that cannot take account of
> > circumstance.
> 
> Read that again, and maybe you will see the irony.

If there is any irony there it is only because you perceived it.  But
then everything is perception isn't it?  It's too bad that most people's
can be quite different (that's not me getting into the whole Iraq/Israel
thing :) )

> > Well that's your perogative, I just can't respect your decision though.
> 
> The problem with mailing lists is that they *never* stop the discussion at
> the first point were it could be stopped ;)

I can't respect Jan's decision, I don't see the harm in that.  People
disagree.  I have said nothing which I should not have said.
 
> > Since I first encountered IMP I've long wanted to rewrite the entire
> > user-interface side of things to conform to usability standards... it
> 
> You are not alone here.  Your input would be appreciated.

I don't feel it would be of use, I get a strong sense that my ideas
would be too far-reaching for this project, a fair bit would have to be
changed and most people don't like change. ;)

> > appears we are both advocates of standards but I fear that my openness
> > to practical considerations versus your adherance to policies wouldn't
> > work in practice
> 
> And projecting our attitude to one particular situation to all situations
> won't work in practice either.

I've been on this list before and got the same impressions I did then. 
Horde/IMP has a pretty set path as far as I can tell and I don't get the
impression anything would be able to change that in the near future.

I try not to be so naive as to base my opinions totally and utterly on
one encounter, I don't think I've been so here.

> You don't have to give up the war because you lost one battle.

I'm not fighting any wars but I do have the sense to know when something
just isn't going to work.

I feel that IMP will eventually reach a point whereupon parts of it will
be brought up-to-date in a "work-backwards" sort of way and then it will
shine even more as a webmail client but I don't want to wait around for
that day or deal with what I'd have to deal with to help the project get
there.  My limited time would be better spent elsewhere.


All the best...

Conor


--
Conor Kerr
Amiga Developer, Ceon Ltd., Northern Ireland
www.ceon.net  conor at dev.ceon.net