[horde] Re: Comments and thoughts on Horde Framework

[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Quoting Francisco Reyes <francisco at natserv.net>:

> For instance in "my ideal" framework there would be a series of
> requirements a package/module would need to meet to be considered 
> an "official" package/module. This would give consistency to the apps, 
> it would make it easier for newcomers to install applications, it would
> simplify making documentation because one could have the basic 
> instructions on the horde application and just read each 
> package/module individual INSTALL file for any special notes.

We, more or less, have all of this. There are apps (Troll, for example) 
that need lots of work, but they're not officially released yet.

We are lacking an installer. It's not something that is impossible, given 
the current code and the goals of the framework. In fact, it'd be 
extrememly nice. We just need someone with both the time and motivation to 
get it done. I'd love to write something based off of the PEAR tools, for 
example. But I don't have time - there's too much else to take care of, 
like the work that actually pays the bills (yes, I'd love to be hired by 
someone to write the Horde Installer).

> On /horde/README
> ---------
[snip]
> Unless you are a developer interested in developing applications with
> the framework, once you have downloaded an installed the framework you 
> will want to download and install different modules that you believe 
> will be of use to you. The framework by itself does not have any
> capabilities or usefull features that an end user could take advantage 
> of.
> ---------

I've added this in CVS:

The Horde Framework, by itself, does not provide any significant end
user functionality; it provides a base for other applications and
tools for developers. You will probably want to install some of the
available Horde applications, such as IMP (a webmail client), or
Kronolith (a calendar). There is a list of Horde applications and
projects at http://www.horde.org/projects.php.

Thanks for the suggestion/impetus!

> On /horde/docs/INSTALL
> ---------
> INSTALLING THE HORDE 2.0 FRAMEWORK
> ==================================

Again, I've committed something slightly different:

The Horde Framework, by itself, does not provide any significant end
user functionality; it provides a base for other applications and
tools for developers. When you have installed Horde as described
below, you will probably want to install some of the available Horde
applications, such as IMP (a webmail client), or Kronolith (a
calendar). There is a list of Horde applications and projects at
http://www.horde.org/projects.php.

If you are interested in developing applications for Horde, there is
developer documentation and references available at
http://dev.horde.org/, and some tutorials and papers on Horde
available at http://www.horde.org/papers/.

And again, thanks for the concrete suggestion.

> I am confused.. why do you say none of my other suggestions would work?
> Why couldn't you have daily "snapshots" of horde with all it's apps on
> the FTP server?
> A whole lot easier than having to read-up on CVS.

Snapshots would work, although it's somewhat complicated by the fact that 
we have different versions of some applications - such as IMP and Horde - 
for backwards compatibility purposes. If there's anyone out there who 
wants to work up a script to get us nightly tarballs of configurable 
branches of modules from CVS, I'd be happy to help you get it set up, and 
I'm pretty sure we have the FTP space. Jon?

> This is something else I don't understand.
> Is there one team doing all the apps or is there a team doing the
> framework and another doing the apps?
> If there is such division then this would go to the "apps" team.

There is one group of people doing everything they can. None of us are 
paid to do this full-time; I'm lucky enough to be consulting and paid to 
do some of it now, but that's not the same as being able to devote paid 
time to things for the good of the project that aren't paying off for a 
particular client at any given time.

I've added this particular thing (registry.php stanzas in application 
INSTALL files) to my todo list (in Nag <g>). I've also been cleaning up a 
bunch of our INSTALL files in a few apps (Nag, Kronolith, the new Mnemo, 
etc.) today. If anyone wants to beat me to this, that would be great.

> How about then just creating a set of rules of how all apps should be
> installed and putting that in the 
> main horde/INSTALL. Basically a blue print of how programs are
> installed.

We pretty much have this; if someone wants to formalize it, I'd look at 
the result and see if it's worth putting into INSTALL or maybe in the FAQ.

> Do you have a docs team/person?
> Do you have a release engineer?

To both: whoever has the time to be doing it.

> Do you have a methodology/plan/guidelines/rules on when a module is done
> and to put it on the site?

Ideally, it should work and have minimal documentation. But we try to 
follow the "release early, release often" mantra. Marking something as 1.0 
is more rigorous; we try to have things out and tested for a bit, 
documented, clean, etc.

> If I could at least get nag working I would consider trying horde.

If you continue to post detailed information on the problem you're having -
 your reports have been a bit vague so far - we'll do what we can to help 
you get it running. It's hard with limited information.

> I think that right from the beginning you could improve the installation
> experience by making it easier to find the files to download. How about 
> a "download" link? On said link you could just explain that 
> one can go to the "Projects" link and choose the project. From there one
> can choose CVS or FTP.

This is something else that's on my todo list; I'll see what I can do.

-chuck

--
Charles Hagenbuch, <chuck at horde.org>
"A dream which helps you to live your reality with dignity
 and justice is a good dream." - Tariq Ramadan