[horde] Marking messages as seen on delete

[Michael M Slusarz]

Quoting Ole Wolf <ole at naturloven.dk>:

> Quoting Michael J Rubinsky <mrubinsk at horde.org>:
>> ...because the meaning/use of IMAP message flags is dictated by the  
>> IMAP RFCs.
>
> Yes, but I'm not asking for a new use of the flags; both "seen" and  
> "deleted" would retain their meanings according to the RFC.

"Seen" means that a user has "read" the message (RFC 3501 [2.3.2]).   
To "read" a message, this implies that a user has taken a proactive,  
pull action to view the message (i.e. clicking on a message to view).   
Compare this with a passive, push action, i.e. the MUA, NOT the user,  
downloads the initial portion of the message to view as a preview.   
This is not "read"

> Most email clients allow the user to mark an entire selection of  
> messages as "seen" without ever displaying them to the user. Imp  
> allows this, too.

See above.  This is a proactive action on the user's part to "read"  
the message - in this case, the user simply doesn't care to view the  
actual text.  In both of these cases (viewing a message, SPECIFICALLY  
marking a message as read), the user has implicitly viewed the message.

> Deleting and marking isn't necessarily an atomic operation, so I  
> don't see how an RFC applies.

Exactly.  When deleting a message, you are just marking the message as  
deleted.  There's nothing in there about changing the seen flag.  So  
the seen flag is irrelevant in a delete.  There is no implicit  
understanding that by deleting a message, the user has "read" it.

A real-world analogy is useful here.  Say I receive a piece of junk  
mail in snail mail.  I can actually open the envelope and view the  
message.  Say I throw it in the trash after reading.  Anybody could  
look into the trash can and determine that I have actually viewed the  
message.

On the other hand, say I have looked at the envelope of the message  
indicates it is junk mail.  I can then write "REVIEWED" on the message  
and throw it in the trash.  Anybody could look into the trash can and  
determine that I have actually reviewed the message, to the extent  
that I have determined that its contents do not interest me.

The final thing I could do is to simply throw the message out.   
However, somebody looking at the trash could not specifically tell  
whether I have ever viewed the message.  In fact, it is equally as  
likely that the message ended up in the mailbox by mistake.  This has  
to be the default understanding, unless I have proactively done  
something to indicate I have reviewed the message.

In short, Delete != Read

> Glancing over TFC 3501, I wasn't able to find anything either for or  
> against marking deleted messages as seen.

In the absence of mandatory language, the default HAS to be leaving  
the message in the status quo then.

michael

___________________________________
Michael Slusarz [slusarz at horde.org]