[turba] horde db shortcomings

[Marko Djukic]

I'm not going to get into a point-by-point of all the very flawed arguments from
both of you in the below discussion. But would like to point out one thing. We
are all voluntarily contributing to this project, not one of us is being
directly paid to insert this code into the Horde CVS to be available to you
all.

In a lot of the cases the income that we do get is from our own implementation
of this Horde code, meaning we give more priority on making good code (which I
have not seen much code around to rival Horde, in style, logic, functionality
and compatibility) than creating a supporting enviornment for other
implementors of Horde. We try our best with the resources available, but yes,
the docs sometimes are not up to par.

If *YOU* have a problem with the manuals, before you shout WTFM, how about
considering a few alternatives (in decreasing order of usefulness):
a) contribute a patch/blurb/anything to improve the docs; or if not
b) point out the failings so that when someone does get a chance to improve the
docs it can be done, and this is often done very quickly in these cases; or if
not
c) contribute monitarily to a developer or anyone else to set aside some time
and create in-depth documentation; or if not
d) figure it out yourself; or if not
e) STFU... to be blunt.

Marko

Quoting Lee Wiggers <lee.wiggers at americanelevatorinspection.com>:

> > If you read what I wrote, you would see that I had a read all the
> > documentation pertaining to the horde suite.  I have been
> > reluctantly using Horde for about two years.  It has always
> > impressed me that how a project with such promise can be crippled
> > by such poor documentation.
> >
> > When I put together open source projects, I try to make an
> > assumption that the user needs to know nothing more than what is
> > necessary to get the system working, usually by detailed
> > instructions or a guaranteed not to fail script.
> >
> > so, if I included a database in one of my projects, I would give
> > instance implementers complete instructions on how to set up the
> > database completely because it is a bad assumption to assume that
> > the user of your project gives a care about databases.  They're
> > just a tool to let them get their work done and if they get in the
> > way or are difficult to manage, then they are broken and should be
> > discarded as a tool.
> >
> > when you look at the actual instructions for setting up turba,
> > they are for the most part sufficient if you're into fiddling.  It
> > is not what I would consider adequate for a production
> > environment.  the database scripts however are fundamentally
> > flawed.  The instructions were just wrong.  There is no
> > explanation is no description of what the final result should be
> > in terms of tables, entries, permissions, or ownership.
> >   You have no precondition or post condition documentation.  you
> >   have no
> > metric to tell the implementer how to know when they are done.
> >
> > yes, I was a bit grumpy from frustration and the lack of polish
> > with which the package was put together.  Sure I might be able to
> > get things to work if I spend a few weeks becoming an expert in
> > postgresql but why should I have to?  is this some kind of IT jobs
> > program?  I have avoided working with databases for the past
> > twenty plus years because they seem to do nothing but screwup,
> > overly complicate or delay projects.  This experience has done
> > nothing to change my mind.
> >
> > so, either you can leave this product inadequate and unfinished or
> > you can work with me to figure out what is wrong and generate a
> > new set of documentation or scripts so that the next poor sod
> > won't get so badly hammered.
> >
> > ---eric
> >
> > --
> > Speech recognition in use.  Incorrect endings, words, and case is
> > closer than it appears
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Turba mailing list
> > Frequently Asked Questions: http://horde.org/faq/
> > To unsubscribe, mail: turba-unsubscribe at lists.horde.org
> >
>
> Bravo
>
> There are many lurkers out here waiting for the docs.  When you are
> arrogant enough to tell me to rtfm, you'd better be learning to WTFM
> or at least accept all the help you can get when offered.
>
> Without docs your project is poop on the rug.
>
>
> Hats off, Eric.  Well said.
>
> Lee
>
> --
> User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org
>
> --
> Turba mailing list
> Frequently Asked Questions: http://horde.org/faq/
> To unsubscribe, mail: turba-unsubscribe at lists.horde.org
>