[turba] horde db shortcomings

[Eric Rostetter]

Quoting "Eric S. Johansson" <esj at harvee.org>:

> If you read what I wrote, you would see that I had a read all the
> documentation pertaining to the horde suite.  I have been reluctantly
> using Horde for about two years.  It has always impressed me that how a
> project with such promise can be crippled by such poor documentation.

Then why not contribute to it?

> When I put together open source projects, I try to make an assumption
> that the user needs to know nothing more than what is necessary to get
> the system working, usually by detailed instructions or a guaranteed not
> to fail script.

That means you are limiting it to supported platforms, and limiting your
user base.  I'd rather limit my user base to people with a clue than to
people with a particular OS/DB/etc.

> so, if I included a database in one of my projects, I would give
> instance implementers complete instructions on how to set up the
> database completely because it is a bad assumption to assume that the
> user of your project gives a care about databases.

What is missing from our instructions that would make them complete in
your opinion?

>  They're just a tool
> to let them get their work done and if they get in the way or are
> difficult to manage, then they are broken and should be discarded as a tool.

Nope, not so.  If a tool is hard to use, it should only be discarded if
a better option exists and is feasible for the user.  Otherwise, you should
still use the tool.  If there is nothing better, and it is hard to use,
and you don't like that it is hard to use then you should either improve it
or work with the manufacturer to improve it.

> when you look at the actual instructions for setting up turba, they are
> for the most part sufficient if you're into fiddling.  It is not what I
> would consider adequate for a production environment.

What would you consider "adequate" (sic)?  Why are they not sufficient without
"fiddling?"  What kind of "fiddling" did you need to do?

> the database
> scripts however are fundamentally flawed.  The instructions were just
> wrong.

Which instructions are those?

>  There is no explanation is no description of what the final
> result should be in terms of tables, entries, permissions, or ownership.

The scripts themselves document that.

>   You have no precondition or post condition documentation.  you have no
> metric to tell the implementer how to know when they are done.

When the script finishes running without error you are done.  What more
do you want to know?

> yes, I was a bit grumpy from frustration and the lack of polish with
> which the package was put together.  Sure I might be able to get things
> to work if I spend a few weeks becoming an expert in postgresql but why
> should I have to?

I got it running, and was no expert in postgresql.  In fact, I installed
postgresql for the first time to run horde/imp.  No problems.  So I'm not
sure where your problems are, or how to fix them, since you provide no
specifics, no patches, no suggestions, etc.

>  is this some kind of IT jobs program?

No.  It is a bunch of busy people.  It is open source, meaning if you want
something changed, you have to put some effort into it.  Complaining will
not fix anything.  Making constructive comments, submitting patches or
additions, subscribing to the docs mailing list and discussing things in
a non-antagonistic method, etc. on the other hand will fix problems.

>  I have avoided
> working with databases for the past twenty plus years because they seem
> to do nothing but screwup, overly complicate or delay projects.  This
> experience has done nothing to change my mind.

Well, once a mind is closed by prejudice...

> so, either you can leave this product inadequate and unfinished or you
> can work with me to figure out what is wrong and generate a new set of
> documentation or scripts so that the next poor sod won't get so badly
> hammered.

You have shown no interesting yet in helping us.  It is open source.
Please help.  But vague comments like you have made are of no help.
Saying "the docs are bad" does not help in any real way.  You need to
be specific.  Until then, don't blame us, blame yourself and the other
users who are not trying to help in the spirit of open source projects.

> ---eric
>
> --
> Speech recognition in use.  Incorrect endings, words, and case is
> closer than it appears

--
Eric Rostetter
The Department of Physics
The University of Texas at Austin

Why get even? Get odd!