[imp] PATCH: compose.php delocalization

[Eric Rostetter]

Quoting Steve Stavropoulos <steve@math.upatras.gr>:

This is my last reply to this thread.  Others can ramble it on if they
like, but this is my last response.

> On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Eric Rostetter wrote:
> 
> > Quoting Steve Stavropoulos <steve@math.upatras.gr>:
> >
> > >  This is a small patch that removes some localization from
> > > imp/compose.php in the sake of better communication between people with
> > > different languages.
> >
> > And for worse communication between people who all speak the same (other
> > than English) language.
> >
> 
>  Why is that? This patch doesn't prevent anyone from writing to whatever
> language he wants.

No, but it potentially puts into their mail message a foreign language
string that they don't understand and that their recipients won't understand.
So they would at least have to send text that they don't understand.  At best
they would have to delete it, perhaps then replacing it with text in their
language.  So it just makes for confusion or additional work when dealing
with a homogenious group of people.

> The only thing it does is keeping the standard
> notation in english.

There is no standard.  I get hundreds of emails a day (unfortunately that
is true).  Of those in English, I see over a dozen different
phrases for quoting/identifying the previous author in a reply.

> For example the "Fwd:" in the subject is pretty
> standard and I feel that it shouldn't be localized.

But a lot of sites us Fw: instead of Fwd: or may want to localize this.
If localization is left on, I can change this to anything I want, whether
that is language specific, or just my preferences.  Remember that localization
isn't always used in Horde for language translations, but can also
be used for word or phrase substitution.

As an example, my site uses localization to change references of "Horde"
to "PhyNet" for my site.  This is not a translation, but a substitution.
I may want to substitute, or translate, the various mail phrases, and I
should be allowed to.

> A similar change was
> done to imp-3.1. The "Re:" in 3.0 was localized, but in 3.1 isn't.

This is true.  However, it is needed to support threading.  And I think
there actually is some standards for this dealing with threading.

> Besides the "Fwd:" delocalization, I delocalized the messages that get
> put when you forward a mail. For example the "Mail Forwarded from <>"
> and the other info about the forwarded mail. I think that these messages
> have nothing to do with the language the user has chosen for imp
> interface.

I disagree.  You're looking at this from the point of view of a heterogeneous
email environment.  For such, your method *might* be reasonable.  But while
Horde can be used in such an environment, it can also be used in a 
homogeneous environement.  So we can't exclude that possibility.  That is
why I would accept such an option as a preference or configuration item,
but not as an absolute default setting.

> > And which English should we use?  US English?  British (Queen's English)?
> > Canadian English?  Or some others?
> >
> 
> Standard Notation. I'm not talking about the language that the user
> will write in, but just what imp will fill in.

Yes, and I am saying there is no standard notation for (most of) these
phrases, words, and abbreviations.

>  I think that IMP shouldn't assume that the user wants to write the
> email in his language. The user should be free to use whatever he wants.

Isn't that why there is a preference for language, that can be changed on
the fly?  And support for "foreign" characters via the "special characters"
function in compose?

> IMP should just use the (in)formal standards for whatever it puts in the
> mail.

I don't see any informal standards for most of the phrases you targeted.
As I said, I get a lot of mail, almost all in English.  And in it, I get
over a dozen different phrases for the same "quote" line.  So there is
no standard, or there are over a dozen standards.  In either case, your
patch doesn't work.

>  Some mail is international, some not. IMP should deal with both I
> think and keep the standards were applicable.
> Maybe there should be a config option for this issue...

I'm not really against this as a configuration or preference issue, but I
doubt it will generate enough response to make it in as such.  But I'm
definately against it as an obsolute setting.

> > >  Localization is a very good thing, but there are limits!
> >
> > Yes, but this is not one.
> >
> 
>  Can you reconsider that?

No, I stand by my original email.

> > For the record: I agree, this mailing list is supposed to be an English
> > only list (when/if possible) but that doesn't mean all email sent by
> > IMP is meant to be English only, or even partly in English.
> >
> 
>  IMP already did the delocalization of "Re:" in 3.1. I 'm just asking
> for more!

You need to have an compelling reason for such a change.  I would guess the
developers thought that threading was such a compelling reason for the Re: tag.
You've given no compelling reason for your changes.

> > >  And this is the patch:
> >
> > I really hope this does NOT get included, or is included only as a
> > configuration option or as a preference.
> 
>  I think at least there should be a config option and a preference
> setting for that.

I won't argue against that, but I'm also not willing (as I have no compelling
interest in it) to spend the time on coding it.  Maybe one of the developers
might feel differenet (I doubt it, but you never know).  Maybe you should
as if a new patch, making it a configuration or preference, would be accepted,
and if so, code up such as patch.  That assumes you feel strongly about it.

-- 
Eric Rostetter
The Department of Physics
The University of Texas at Austin

Why get even? Get odd!