[imp] Signature

[Michael M Slusarz]

Quoting Brendan Oakley <gentux2 at gmail.com>:

> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Brendan Oakley wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Michael M Slusarz wrote:
>>
>>> Or do the search yourself:
>>>
>>> http://www.horde.org/community/mail/
>>>
>>> I can also almost guarantee if you search for my name and "signature" and
>>> either "stupid" or "dumb" or "signatures in the compose body is the most
>>> idiotic UI decision we ever made and thank god we have fixed it" you will
>>> get some useful search results will reams of unchallenged discussion on why
>>> the old method was terrible.
>>
>> I went to this mailing list page and did a search for "slusarz
>> signature stupid idiotic" and got 1 result, which is a long series of
>> lots of unrelated threads from 2011. Incidentally, searching for
>> "signature" in the mailing list is pointless, because apparently some
>> signatures are appended as attachments with signature in the name.
>
> Reading through about half of the most active discussion in that
> result, another debate remarkably similar in tenor to this one, but
> regarding how a user is to experience Reply-All vs. Reply, there is a
> suggestion to do a google search for "reply all horror stories."

We had a long discussion regarding Reply-All vs. Reply, and all  
opinions were listened to and, more importantly, responded to.  Go  
back and read that discussion.  It was quite clear that the arguments  
for the current way of doing things (always reply-all) entirely  
trumped the other way (only reply to user).  But everybody was allowed  
to voice their displeasure.

> find this ironic in this context of effective searching for correct
> answers, because that search does indeed find many relevant results,
> all of which demonstrate conclusively the correct answer, which was
> being dogmatically defined as wrong, stupid, and idiotic.

Huh?  What correct answer?  I assume you mean Reply-All which was the  
correct solution after discussion (and has been proven to be so in  
implementation).  The dogmatic reply only-to-sender was demonstrated  
to be inferior and probably only exists because legacy email clients  
blindly implement it without regard to its underlying theory.

> I am seeing a pattern in these discussions. I don't want to point
> fingers,

You are pointing fingers.  I will instead take the approach of opening  
a dialogue.

> but I would respectfully and gently suggest that the current
> approach to answering questions and comments be reconsidered. There
> are two sides to every story, and development theory and the real
> world can sometimes be at odds.

That is *exactly* what was done with the question of signatures.   
Here's a nice long bug report from 2 years ago discussing the original  
changes:

http://bugs.horde.org/ticket/10487

Or how about this message:

http://marc.info/?l=imp&m=135880093617977&w=2

Or this message which addresses implementation concernsand  tries to  
further the discussion by identifying alternatives:

http://marc.info/?l=imp&m=135879679716296&w=2

It's not like I just woke up one day, decided this was a bad idea, and  
then failed to listen to anybody.  But at this point when there's been  
multiple previous discussions, and when nobody is responding to my  
arguments in a meaningful way, what's the point in continuing  
discussion anymore?  Especially when most of the counter-arguments  
don't address the issue at all and instead are some sort of variation  
of this: http://marc.info/?l=imp&m=135879499915557&w=2

> reconciliation, not just dismissal. The purpose of this software is
> live deployment for broad user consumption, after all, isn't it?

Please don't confuse your dissatisfaction in the result with the idea  
that the idea hasn't been discussed in detail. That's insulting to the  
many active and bright participants on these lists.

But you are right that in the end it is going to look like a  
dictatorship because *someone* has to make a decision and, more  
importantly, actually code it.  And keep in mind: I can think of very  
few open source projects where somebody, if not getting paid for the  
particular feature, is going to code something in their own time if  
they don't agree with it.

michael

___________________________________
Michael Slusarz [slusarz at horde.org]