[horde] Fwd: [Tickets #12069] Re: Kronolith meetings don't show Organizer

[Simon Wilson]

----- Message from Jan Schneider <jan at horde.org> ---------
    Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 11:09:34 +0100
    From: Jan Schneider <jan at horde.org>
Subject: Re: [horde] Fwd: [Tickets #12069] Re: Kronolith meetings  
don't show Organizer
      To: horde at lists.horde.org


> Zitat von Simon Wilson <simon at simonandkate.net>:
>
>>> Quoting Michael J Rubinsky <mrubinsk at horde.org>:
>>>
>>>> Quoting simon at simonandkate.net:
>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, moving on... is there a way to "+1" feature requests or  
>>>>> bugs or similar, as some places have, to provide opportunity for  
>>>>> your user community to give input on what they think important?  
>>>>> How do you prioritise what is in the queue and is getting  
>>>>> attention? Do you publish this information?
>>>>
>>>> We prioritize things pretty much the way I already described  
>>>> them. While I can't speak for other developers, I'm sure we all  
>>>> do similar prioritizing for the code we are responsible for.
>>>
>>> For the record: if there is an active bug report and/or  
>>> enhancement request open on bugs.horde.org that has existed for  
>>> more than a few days (read: it has been reviewed by at least one  
>>> developer and not rejected), this is all the indication needed  
>>> that the project agrees that something needs to be fixed/improved.
>>>
>>> Adding a '+1' comment that is NOT followed by either "Here is a  
>>> patch...", or "Here is how you can duplicate...", or (ideally)  
>>> "Here is funding..." is borderline spam.  We already know and  
>>> agree there is an issue so this kind of comment provides no  
>>> further information (or incentive) to look at the ticket further.
>>>
>>> michael
>>>
>>
>> Michael - firstly please take this in the spirit it is intended:  
>> not combative, just trying to challenge your stated views...
>>
>> Your response is completely from YOUR perspective. Horde exists for  
>> real users, not developers. You guys develop and write it for us  
>> who use it, many of us in small environments with only a handful of  
>> users like me (for which as already stated I and many others are  
>> grateful). Those of us who take the our own usually unpaid time (as  
>> is usually yours, I get that too) to report bugs don't know that  
>> just because a bug has been logged that it has been looked at,  
>> reviewed and not rejected - how can we if you don't take the 30  
>> seconds to hit "Comment" and type something like "Noted,  
>> investigating"? Sorry, but zero response is not "indication that  
>> the project agrees that something needs to be fixed". If someone  
>> speaks to you, do you expect them to assume that if you don't reply  
>> you agree with them? If that is the official Horde position, then  
>> this attitude just makes me less likely to bother reporting bugs,  
>> and I doubt that I am the only one in that boat. Classing  
>> follow-ups from people adding their comments who don't necessarily  
>> fix it for you as "borderline spam" is short-sighted and offensive.  
>> There is a large difference between one person having an issue and  
>> multiple people having the issue, whether or not the extra  
>> reporters provide fixes or finance. There is a bug I reported 2  
>> weeks ago that has had no response - you are saying that means it  
>> has been "agreed that something needs to be fixed". Then please  
>> take the time to note that it has been looked at, and convince me  
>> that I am not wasting my time reporting bugs. Or not... :-/
>
> This argument is moot because we *do* answer reports. It might not  
> be the response that you expect, like an elaborated analysis of the  
> problem and what it takes to solve it, including estimated costs and  
> a fixed deadline. If you expect that, hire Horde LLC.
> Otherwise, setting a state of a request to Accepted, requesting more  
> information from the reporter, or setting a bug state to Assigned is  
> sign enough that the bug has been looked at. It might always happen  
> that it takes a few days until this happens, because no one had time  
> to look at it, or the developer working mostly on the area that was  
> reported is currently unavailable. But I for one go through all  
> unread bug messages every few days for a quick triage. And I know  
> other developers are doing the same for the areas they are  
> interested in.
> That being said, it might always happen that a ticket slips through  
> the cracks. We are currently at a ticket count of over 12,000, maybe  
> you cannot imagine how much developer time has already been spent on  
> looking at *every single one* of those. If that happens, a friendly  
> reminder would be nice, after a bug has not been acted onfor two  
> weeks or so.

Yes, you guys DO usually respond to bug reports, which is what  
surprised me about MS' comment that still open after a few days means  
it's agreed it needs to be addressed. Elaborate analysis isn't needed  
(or expected!). I commented that a simple "noted" would be appreciated  
in response to what appeared to be the setting of an expectation of  
not getting anything.

I'm not worried about an occasional slip through the cracks, that happens.

I AM worried that a friendly reminder is likely to be viewed as being  
"borderline spam".

>> I'm no dummy in this stuff, I am a highly qualified 15+ year IT  
>> manager with experience managing enterprise systems like  
>> Peoplesoft, including teams of developers, project managers, on  
>> major business transformation programs, etc. One of my main life  
>> and career learnings is that taking the time to keep stakeholders  
>> informed and engaged is NEVER wasted time. It is unfortunately  
>> something that many technical people don't see the value in.
>>
>> If you don't see those of us out here as stakeholders in Horde,  
>> whether or not we financially contribute, then I think that is your  
>> loss not ours.
>>
>> My opinion.
>
> And quite an assumption of yours that we don't care. Horde is a  
> community project, and without the community we were nothing. It was  
> already mentioned that we appreciate feedback and bug reports a lot.  
> Assuming anything else is pretty offensive.
> We might not handle this feedback they way you like, but we *do*  
> handle it, and it's our choice *how* we handle it, since you are not  
> our IT or project manager. If you aren't happy with our priorities,  
> you have means to change them. Michael pretty well summed it up how  
> we build our priorities.
> -- 
> Jan Schneider

I never said you don't care. You wouldn't do what you do if you did  
not. I also want to help make it a better product - I have spent  
several hours today troubleshooting AS email issues.

Had the topic been left after MR's comments I would have left it at  
that. I'm on Horde's side Jan, I am not an enemy. If I have offended  
anyone in the dev team with comments, that was not intentional and I  
apologise.

I am not the first one to feel (and post to this effect) that at times  
responses to comments and discussions in this mailing list can be  
fairly 'hard' and one-sided.

Anyway - enough of this for now from this side methinks. Back to try  
and work out what on earth is happening with ActiveSync email... :)

Simon

--
Simon Wilson
M: 0400 12 11 16
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 198 bytes
Desc: PGP Digital Signature
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20130302/c3ba2718/attachment-0001.bin>