[imp] Some of our users are loosing their mails.

[Andy Dorman]

On 02/20/2014 04:04 AM, ANANT S ATHAVALE wrote:
>   ----- Message from Jan Schneider <jan at horde.org> ---------
>     Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 10:27:30 +0100
>     From: Jan Schneider <jan at horde.org>
> Subject: Re: [imp] Some of our users are loosing their mails.
>       To: imp at lists.horde.org
>
>> Zitat von ANANT S ATHAVALE <asa at isac.gov.in>:
>>
>>> ----- Message from Michael M Slusarz <slusarz at horde.org> ---------
>>>    Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 00:03:48 -0700
>>>    From: Michael M Slusarz <slusarz at horde.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [imp] Some of our users are loosing their mails.
>>>      To: imp at lists.horde.org
>>>
>>>> Quoting ANANT S ATHAVALE <asa at isac.gov.in>:
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Message from Michael M Slusarz <slusarz at horde.org> ---------
>>>>>    Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 23:33:54 -0700
>>>>>    From: Michael M Slusarz <slusarz at horde.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [imp] Some of our users are loosing their mails.
>>>>>      To: imp at lists.horde.org
>>>>>
>>>>>> Quoting Simon B <simon.buongiorno at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 20 Feb 2014 05:54, "ANANT S ATHAVALE" <asa at isac.gov.in> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear List,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The users are using horizontal view.  They click on a message and
> it
>>>>>>>> gets
>>>>>>>> displayed at the bottom half.  This also makes check box left to
>>>
>>> that
>>>>>>>> message getting selected.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, they scroll down to see some other mails and while viewing,
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> decide to select some mails which can be deleted without even
>>>>>>>> opening/seeing.  So, they do it by checking/clicking on the check
>>>
>>> box
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> by now, they have already forgotten that, there is one message on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> top,
>>>>>>>> which is already selected as it was being viewed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, they click on Delete.  So, this makes one extra mail getting
>>>>>>>> deleted,
>>>>>>>> though they don't intend to delete it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though, I feel, it is the user who is doing the mistake, but, how
> to
>>>>>>>> avoid
>>>>>>>> this happening, even unknowingly.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a confirmation preference isn't there?  To have a pop-up
>>>>>>> confirming
>>>>>>> deletes?  Turn it on and lock it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And/or use a trash mailbox.  So it is not a destructive action.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> michael
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___________________________________
>>>>>> Michael Slusarz [slusarz at horde.org]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> imp mailing list
>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions: http://wiki.horde.org/FAQTo unsubscribe,
>>>>>> mail: imp-unsubscribe at lists.horde.org
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- End message from Michael M Slusarz <slusarz at horde.org> -----
>>>>>
>>>>> The main problem is, they should immediately realise that, they have
>>>>> deleted a mail accidently.  The users would have either setup Trash
>>>>> cleanup policy or they may be cleaning up on their own. Realilsing the
>>>>> mistake later is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> At some point, a user has to accept responsibility for pressing the
>>>> delete button.  You can't make deleting a process that takes seconds
>>>> every time you do it or else the user wont use your program.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, there was a study somewhere that indicated that the confirm
> delete
>>>> file message in Windows was absolutely worthless.  After the first few
>>>> times it was viewed, people just clicked OK blindly to remove the modal
>>>> popup whether they meant to delete the message or not.  The popup did
>>>> nothing to warn them - it was just an annoyance.
>>>>
>>>> Same here.  The Trash mailbox exists for precisely this purpose
>>>> (analogous to the recycle bin on Windows).  Users know to search there
>>>> if they accidentally remove something.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see the need for a modal popup warning in Trash mailbox
> either.
>>>> If people are individually deleting messages from the Trash, they have
>>>> gone out of their way to go into there, select individual messages, and
>>>> click Delete.  This is *2* times they have indicated they want to
> delete
>>>> that message.  If that is not confirmation that they really want the
>>>> message deleted, then nothing is. (Again... a modal popup is NOT going
>>>> to help here for the same reasons as stated above.)
>>>>
>>>> Or else you can simply disable deletions in the Trash mailbox and rely
>>>> on a logintask/cron job to periodically clean out the trash.  Then
> users
>>>> could never permanently delete messages on their own.
>>>>
>>>> michael
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________
>>>> Michael Slusarz [slusarz at horde.org]
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> imp mailing list
>>>> Frequently Asked Questions: http://wiki.horde.org/FAQTo unsubscribe,
>>>> mail: imp-unsubscribe at lists.horde.org
>>>
>>> ----- End message from Michael M Slusarz <slusarz at horde.org> -----
>>>
>>> I agree with everything.  But, still not clear why a mail should get
>>> selected when opened for viewing.  If I get a clarification on this, I
>>> can
>>> convince my users.  I know, there may be very genuine technical reason
>>> behind it, which I am unable to think of.  Please clarify.
>>>
>>> I know, the efforts which has gone through developing this application
> by
>>> you is tremendous and it is very easy to question somebody, but when it
>>> comes to implementation, there will be some technical constraints.
>>>
>>> So, just wanted to understand the same, so that, it is easy for me to
>>> convince my users, why such behaviour.
>>
>> Because that's exactly what you want or expect from a mail client. If
>> you view a message, then click delete, you want to delete exactly that
>> message.
>> --
>> Jan Schneider
>> The Horde Project
>> http://www.horde.org/
>> https://www.facebook.com/hordeproject
>>
>> --
>> imp mailing list
>> Frequently Asked Questions: http://wiki.horde.org/FAQTo unsubscribe,
>> mail: imp-unsubscribe at lists.horde.org
>
> ----- End message from Jan Schneider <jan at horde.org> -----
>
> OK.  I am understanding....But, is the following logic worth implementing?
>
> Option 1: If more than 1 message is selected, clicking on delete should not
> delete the message which has also been opened for viewing.  It should
> exclude the mail which has been opened for viewing.
>
> Option 2: If only 1 message is selected and irrespective of whether it is
> also opened for viewing or not, clicking delete button, should delete that
> mail.
>
> Sorry to trouble you with my ideas and it may not be feasible also.  But,
> I think, this may solve our users issue of unknowingly deleting the mail
> which was basically opened for viewing and not for deleting purpose.

I feel this logic is neither intuitive, expected nor needed.

You selected the message in the window, so any action you apply should 
be applied to the displayed message regardless of if you have selected 
additional messages.  If you do NOT want the action to be applied to the 
message you selected in the viewing window, then unselect it.

FWIW, I just went to imp in horizontal view, selected an email to view, 
scrolled down and selected a new email.  When I selected the second 
email the first email disappeared from the view and was replaced with a 
message..."2 messages selected".

So it was blindly obvious that two emails are selected and now when I 
click "delete", TWO emails are going to be deleted.  And this is as it 
should be because two emails were selected and the computer has NO way 
to know that I do not want to delete one of them.

Of course we all make mistakes, so the logical solution is to give them 
a way to recover.  So every new user automatically gets a "Trash" folder 
and the default action when deleting email is to move deleted email to 
trash.  Then we have set imp up to default to clearing the trash folder 
monthly.  The user can turn this off if they are not worried about disk 
space limits.

-- 
Andy Dorman
FanMail.com

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message is for the named person's use only. 
It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged 
information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any 
erroneous transmission. If you receive this message in error, please 
immediately destroy it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or 
indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, or copy any part of this message 
if you are not the intended recipient.